Curse

zwei2stein · Sep 21, 2007, 06:36 AM // 06:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by Redfeather1975

Ensign brought up something I was going to post as well.
Superior runes for me mean extra attribute points to spread around.
If my build has certain break points that I just can't quite reach, I can use a sup rune on the attribute that is the highest and get a whack of attribute points to meet the rest of the builds requirements.

You usually are better off with two majors if you want to spread atts.

wilebill · Sep 21, 2007, 07:56 AM // 07:56

The more health you have around PvE monsters, the less likely they are to attack you. And the less health the more likely they are to come after you.

My great revelation came when Factions first came out, leveling up an Assassin. All the time, evil monsters were ganging up on me, and I was the favorite target of ranged casters! Then a friend suggested going all minor runes. I did and the difference was like night and day.

odly · Sep 21, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

HP is overrated.

Edge Martinez · Sep 21, 2007, 08:08 AM // 08:08

I'll just give the observation I have made during alliance battles. Playing as an Assassin, if I attack someone with a superior rune on, they are pretty much dead, and dead quick. Someone with a major or minor rune at least may get a spell off with like 20 health remaining.

With the ease of this game, I can't see anyone even needing a Superior Rune unless they are doing top end PvP, and I say that only because I don't know what they do. For all I know, they might not use them either.

yesitsrob · Sep 21, 2007, 08:15 AM // 08:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by odly

HP is overrated.

o ok.

Quote:

With the ease of this game, I can't see anyone even needing a Superior Rune unless they are doing top end PvP, and I say that only because I don't know what they do. For all I know, they might not use them either.

They don't.

Redfeather1975 · Sep 21, 2007, 08:24 AM // 08:24

My PVE mesmers Signet of Illusions builds always have a +4 for illusion.

6am3 Fana71c · Sep 21, 2007, 12:19 PM // 12:19

I use superiors in PvE, because I don't have any reason not to. I know how to kite, when to retreat, etc. so why not be as usefull as possible? I even use superiors on my monk, tho he has a head piece with minor rune, if I play Hard Mode or something that isn't NM. But in PvP, it's minor runes all the way (expect on my ranger in AB, he needs both high expertise and marksmanship, while having descent wildreness survival )

odly · Sep 21, 2007, 01:41 PM // 13:41

Health like energy should be managed.

If you start out in a fight with full health, then continuously loose health and hope to kill the other party right before your own health runs out, you're doing something wrong IMO. As simple as that.

Rather you should start out with a certain ammount, loose some, get some prot, get some healing and your health stops going down, and even starts to go up again *during* the fight. Then it goes down again and up again etc. Thats what monks, ritualists, paragons, self prot and self healing etc are for. If that 75HP made the difference between dying and staying alive, sure your better off with than without, but your team did 'manage' your health badly.

You should be at >75% full health after a fight, not at <75 health.

Each and all proffession has ways to help himself/others out defensively. The new PVE only skills have added a few more options for everyone as well. There are actually loads of ways any character can increase his own and his teams survivability on the battle field that have way more impact on your health than the pure HP you start with.

I'm not saying sup runes are better than minor ones. Most of the time it doesn't make one bit of differense one way or the other in PvE. I'm saying that in general you shouldn't need those +75hp so you can take a sup rune if you want. I hate the general tendency in these forums where people say that maxing your HP is the best if not the only thing to avoid death. In the end if you don't have the necessary defenses, then your health will start dropping, continue to drop and then you die. unless the foes die faster off course, which in PvE is usually the case anyway.

A good offense is the best defense, but that doesn't mean you cannot have both.

IMMORTAlMITCH · Sep 21, 2007, 02:09 PM // 14:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

The reason you do not use this logic is because the number of PvE monks that will preprot you with prot spirit can be counted on one hand.

That's why you dont use PvE monks but bring heroes and manually prot spirit..

Btw, apart from the fact that spirit bond isn't very useful in PvE (You try to get all aggro one 1 or 2 people and it only triggers on 10 hits) prot spirit and spirit bond work together regardless of the amount of health you have. The ' 600hp monk' didn't in fact need 600hp.

In most PvE areas you can get by with prot spirit shield of absorption lod and dwaynas kiss as only heals and prots, you just got to use them well, something that has proven to be quite difficult for PvE monks..

glountz · Sep 21, 2007, 02:24 PM // 14:24

Quote:

Originally Posted by wilebill

My great revelation came when Factions first came out, leveling up an Assassin. All the time, evil monsters were ganging up on me, and I was the favorite target of ranged casters! Then a friend suggested going all minor runes. I did and the difference was like night and day.

That's what many pro-minors seem to forget here.
Health is an easy way to cheat AI, to make it attack highly armored characters and leave alone the softies.
Worst, pro-minors seem to forget that you can switch to your minor set when you want, especially if you have a PvP ready character. When things tend to go wild, you just switch end of story.
And sorry for yesitsrob, but 480 or 600 Hp doesn't make any difference against thorn wolfs/Aatxes. They hit for 300-400, so either you're dead in two hits or you're dead in two hits. At this rate of damage, 75 HP won't make any difference. What will make difference is your ability to block/prot/blind/weakness them before they can tear you apart.

Bah, people play like they want.

Buzzer · Sep 21, 2007, 03:27 PM // 15:27

I don't go under 75 hp enough to justify not using a superior in all cases except for DoA and some hard mode zones.

Coraline Jones · Sep 21, 2007, 03:31 PM // 15:31

I have a question that's sort of related to this topic...

Why is there a health penalty for Superior Runes in the first place? Is ANet so fearful of having some kind of "l33t" super-build that gives you a whopping 10-15% more damage/healing on skills? What the heck would it affect by removing all health penalty from all runes? Just unlock all Superiors automatically for PvP and wouldn't everybody be on the same table?

I guess that I'm just really surprised that Guild Wars implemented such a confusing rune system, because it only encourages min-maxing more than ever. I can understand that ANet wants to keep things level. But at the same time, this makes it probably the only RPG that I know where people actually feel extreme disappointment when they get a rare.

That is, many rare, Superior Runes are often less valuable (and even trash) compared to common, Minor Runes of the same attribute. For instance, I'd say that for half of the professions, getting a Superior Rune in your profession's primary attribute is only useful in gimmick builds and that's it.

Warriors don't benefit as much from high strength as they do from tactics skills (other than Sentinel Armor, which is NOT the "uber-l33t" armor for warriors). Elementalists would do better with high damage versus high energy storage. Monks should just put their points in healing/protection (or heck, smiting) versus divine favor. Necromancers aren't going to make soul reaping their highest stat; what good is awesome energy management if you're not killing anything.

The only changes that I would see is that suddenly the market would shift and commons would be really cheap, major runes would actually be used, and superiors suddenly command high prices. Well, shouldn't it be that way in the first place? Why should rare and uncommon items be less useful (and have lower value) than common items?

6am3 Fana71c · Sep 21, 2007, 04:30 PM // 16:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

I have a question that's sort of related to this topic...

Why is there a health penalty for Superior Runes in the first place? Is ANet so fearful of having some kind of "l33t" super-build that gives you a whopping 10-15% more damage/healing on skills? What the heck would it affect by removing all health penalty from all runes? Just unlock all Superiors automatically for PvP and wouldn't everybody be on the same table?

I guess that I'm just really surprised that Guild Wars implemented such a confusing rune system, because it only encourages min-maxing more than ever. I can understand that ANet wants to keep things level. But at the same time, this makes it probably the only RPG that I know where people actually feel extreme disappointment when they get a rare.

That is, many rare, Superior Runes are often less valuable (and even trash) compared to common, Minor Runes of the same attribute. For instance, I'd say that for half of the professions, getting a Superior Rune in your profession's primary attribute is only useful in gimmick builds and that's it.

Warriors don't benefit as much from high strength as they do from tactics skills (other than Sentinel Armor, which is NOT the "uber-l33t" armor for warriors). Elementalists would do better with high damage versus high energy storage. Monks should just put their points in healing/protection (or heck, smiting) versus divine favor. Necromancers aren't going to make soul reaping their highest stat; what good is awesome energy management if you're not killing anything.

The only changes that I would see is that suddenly the market would shift and commons would be really cheap, major runes would actually be used, and superiors suddenly command high prices. Well, shouldn't it be that way in the first place? Why should rare and uncommon items be less useful (and have lower value) than common items?

Chicken Ftw · Sep 21, 2007, 04:32 PM // 16:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

Monks should just put their points in healing/protection (or heck, smiting) versus divine favor.

lolwut.

12 chars

Yichi · Sep 21, 2007, 05:25 PM // 17:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

That is, many rare, Superior Runes are often less valuable (and even trash) compared to common, Minor Runes of the same attribute. For instance, I'd say that for half of the professions, getting a Superior Rune in your profession's primary attribute is only useful in gimmick builds and that's it.

Warriors don't benefit as much from high strength as they do from tactics skills (other than Sentinel Armor, which is NOT the "uber-l33t" armor for warriors). Elementalists would do better with high damage versus high energy storage. Monks should just put their points in healing/protection (or heck, smiting) versus divine favor. Necromancers aren't going to make soul reaping their highest stat; what good is awesome energy management if you're not killing anything.

Dr Strangelove · Sep 21, 2007, 05:31 PM // 17:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

I have a question that's sort of related to this topic...

Why is there a health penalty for Superior Runes in the first place? Is ANet so fearful of having some kind of "l33t" super-build that gives you a whopping 10-15% more damage/healing on skills? What the heck would it affect by removing all health penalty from all runes? Just unlock all Superiors automatically for PvP and wouldn't everybody be on the same table?

I guess that I'm just really surprised that Guild Wars implemented such a confusing rune system, because it only encourages min-maxing more than ever. I can understand that ANet wants to keep things level. But at the same time, this makes it probably the only RPG that I know where people actually feel extreme disappointment when they get a rare.

That is, many rare, Superior Runes are often less valuable (and even trash) compared to common, Minor Runes of the same attribute. For instance, I'd say that for half of the professions, getting a Superior Rune in your profession's primary attribute is only useful in gimmick builds and that's it.

Warriors don't benefit as much from high strength as they do from tactics skills (other than Sentinel Armor, which is NOT the "uber-l33t" armor for warriors). Elementalists would do better with high damage versus high energy storage. Monks should just put their points in healing/protection (or heck, smiting) versus divine favor. Necromancers aren't going to make soul reaping their highest stat; what good is awesome energy management if you're not killing anything.

The only changes that I would see is that suddenly the market would shift and commons would be really cheap, major runes would actually be used, and superiors suddenly command high prices. Well, shouldn't it be that way in the first place? Why should rare and uncommon items be less useful (and have lower value) than common items?

Stormlord Alex · Sep 21, 2007, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dr Strangelove

I laughed, just a little

zwei2stein · Sep 21, 2007, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Coraline Jones

I have a question that's sort of related to this topic...

Why is there a health penalty for Superior Runes in the first place? Is ANet so fearful of having some kind of "l33t" super-build that gives you a whopping 10-15% more damage/healing on skills? What the heck would it affect by removing all health penalty from all runes? Just unlock all Superiors automatically for PvP and wouldn't everybody be on the same table?

I guess that I'm just really surprised that Guild Wars implemented such a confusing rune system, because it only encourages min-maxing more than ever. I can understand that ANet wants to keep things level. But at the same time, this makes it probably the only RPG that I know where people actually feel extreme disappointment when they get a rare.

That is, many rare, Superior Runes are often less valuable (and even trash) compared to common, Minor Runes of the same attribute. For instance, I'd say that for half of the professions, getting a Superior Rune in your profession's primary attribute is only useful in gimmick builds and that's it.

Warriors don't benefit as much from high strength as they do from tactics skills (other than Sentinel Armor, which is NOT the "uber-l33t" armor for warriors). Elementalists would do better with high damage versus high energy storage. Monks should just put their points in healing/protection (or heck, smiting) versus divine favor. Necromancers aren't going to make soul reaping their highest stat; what good is awesome energy management if you're not killing anything.

The only changes that I would see is that suddenly the market would shift and commons would be really cheap, major runes would actually be used, and superiors suddenly command high prices. Well, shouldn't it be that way in the first place? Why should rare and uncommon items be less useful (and have lower value) than common items?

Quantum Duck · Sep 21, 2007, 06:08 PM // 18:08

Well, this thread has been nicely derailed by (admittedly hillarious) picture spam, but I'll go ahead and try to get a post in. Ensign pretty well covered the technical analysis, so I'll just go with my personal experience.

On most of my characters, I prefer minor runes, because it improves my survival rate, and I rarely find it any more difficult to push through PvE enemies with 14 in my offensive attributes. The main exception to this is obviously my Minion Master. As the math pretty clearly shows, those two extra attribute points make a world of difference to her effectiveness.

I'm also currently wearing a Superior Illusion on my Mesmer, who is greatly enjoying how Signet of Illusion allows me to bypass the silly title grind stuff while throwing around Mursaat summons and Vanguard assassinations. Having two fairly powerful level 21 minions on demand while still throwing around some of the better illusion spells while they do their thing has been very effective for me.

yesitsrob · Sep 21, 2007, 06:38 PM // 18:38

Quote:

Bah, people play like they want.

Sure, then threads stating how imbalanced Chromatic Drakes and how hard GWEN is will continue to be created.